In this episode of Blockchain Innovators, Conor Svensson, founder and CEO of Web3 Labs, talks to Joseph Lubin, founder and CEO of ConsenSys and co-founder of Ethereum.
Joe is one of the leading voices in blockchain technology given his path working alongside Vitalik Buterin and a number of others in launching the Ethereum blockchain. He created ConsenSys in 2014, with the goal of providing a commercial entity to drive the wider adoption of Ethereum and its technology.
This podcast is taken from a recent EEA Virtual Meetup where Conor and Joe cover a number of topics including ConsenSys's recent commercial successes with its MetaMask wallet and its funding round supported by JP Morgan, Mastercard, Protocol Labs, the Maker Foundation and others. Joe also shares his thoughts on where we are headed with technologies like Central Bank Digital Currencies, NFTs and DAOs and of course, talk also turned to Elon Musk and his impact on crypto!
Given Joe's incredible journey with Ethereum so far, the valuable insights he provides in this podcast are fascinating to listen to.
You can also watch this video on our YouTube channel here.
Hi, it's Conor Svensson here, founder and CEO of Web3 Labs. This is a conversation I had with Joe Lubin, founder and CEO of ConsenSys and co-founder of Ethereum. Joe is one of the leading voices in blockchain technology given his part working alongside Vitalik Buterin and a number of others in launching the Ethereum blockchain. He created ConsenSys back in 2014 with the goal of providing a commercial entity to drive wider adoption of Ethereum and its technology. I recently hosted Joe for a fireside conversation at one of our virtual Enterprise Ethereum Alliance meetups. We covered a number of topics here including ConsenSys's recent commercial successes with its MetaMask wallet and its funding round which was supported by JP Morgan, Mastercard, Protocol Labs, the Maker Foundation and others. Also, we got his thoughts on where we're headed with technologies like central bank digital currencies, NFTs and DAOs and of course, touched on Elon Musk and his impact on crypto. Given Joe's incredible journey with Ethereum so far it was great to get his insights on everything that's happening at the moment and I'm sure you'll enjoy it too! Joe, thank you first of all for making time it's always great to chat and catch up and certainly have a few dialogues over the years. Yeah and yeah, it's a pleasure to be here and thanks everyone for coming out and importantly in this context maybe the most significant founding that I was associated with was ConsenSys being a founding member and prime driver of the EEA so shout out to the EEA and the formational moments. Definitely, the EEA are so excited when it was first announced, this is just what enterprise folk wanted to see happen with Ethereum. So you started ConsenSys as I said earlier back in 2014 and this year, I think as an observer there's been like a couple of really pivotal things that have happened with ConsenSys. So back in February, it was reported that MetaMask was earning a hundred thousand dollars a day via its token swaps functionality so a big revenue driver. Then also in April there was a 65 million dollar funding round that ConsenSys closed backed by the likes of JP Morgan, Mastercard, UPS, Protocol Labs and the Maker Foundation. Is it fair to say that 2021 is the year where you feel you're starting to really see the fruits of your labor and these bets that you've had, this conviction for all this year pay off? Or do you feel that you were there earlier or there's still a lot more to happen so to speak because this is massive news what's already happened in 2021? Yeah, so payoff can mean monetary and numerical. I feel like we've seen so many things pay off over the years as we were a major contributor to standing up the Ethereum ecosystem for the smart contracts blockchain ecosystem. The history of ConsenSys is that the mothership ConsenSys Mesh invested in a lot of projects, incubated a lot of projects and spun out a lot of projects and built some of the most important projects in the space - developer, tooling, wallet etc. So some of the biggies are Infura and Truffle developer tool suite, our customer success group, our diligence security audit group, Quorum (which is the name that we use for a wide variety of Ethereum node or client solutions both public mainnet and enterprise focus) and the consumer piece which is also becoming an institutional piece, MetaMask, is doing astonishingly well. So those groups in addition to a group called Codifi which builds financial primitives that we can launch into MetaMask for consumers or pure Truffle for developers and into Quorum for enterprises, those pieces are part of a spin out called ConsenSys Software Inc. which is a a focused integrated software product company. So ConsenSys Mesh and ConsenSys Software Inc. proceed in parallel. ConsenSys Mesh manages portfolio and continues to incubate .... So success yeah, opening up the ecosystem, having many millions of monthly active users. Being profitable is a nice thing, that round that you mentioned the 65 million round, brought a bunch of major financial institutions into a situation where a bunch of organizations in our own ecosystem both invested into the formation round of ConsenSys Software Inc. and it was a validation of our convergence hypothesis which is being increasingly validated. That is that the revolutionaries would get out there and build out the infrastructure and start using the infrastructure and the evolutionaries, organizations like Santander, JP Morgan etc, some of the pillars of this institution, the EEA, would make maybe their revolutionaries too because they were early. But the ones behind them would take advantage of the technology in ways that they're comfortable and ConsenSys has focused on making it comfortable to use Ethereum Virtual Machine based technology. Bottom line, it's happening, we've been projecting this for a long time, this decentralized future. Now we're living in the decentralized future. We've seen the blockchain, we've seen cryptocurrencies, we've seen other forms of digital assets, DeFi and especially NFTs crossing the chasm into mainstream awareness and adoption. We were part of the innovators and the early adopters but now the early majority is coming across the chasm and those technologies are what's doing it so it's all very exciting. We thought we were living life at exponential acceleration five years ago and we still are and exponential means that there's a lot to do each day. Yeah, awesome. You touch there on cross crossing the chasm. Do you think that NFTs specifically have kind of been the thing that's been you one of the big enablers, well it's been one of the big enablers but do you think that's the pivotal thing? That or is it more that it's that plus DeFi plus the just wider awareness of crypto? Well, as the technology matures, gets a little rounded around the edges, fewer sharp edges, it'll bring in higher and higher hanging fruit -more and more use cases and it'll be usable by less deeply technologically savvy people. What's happening is a paradigm shift to a new way of building and organizing the world. So the web basically accomplished the democratization of access to information, ability to publish, ability to engage in e-commerce, stand-up e-commerce or do the same for social networks and what we're seeing now is the democratization of the new foundations of the emerging decentralized digital economy. First foundation is the trust foundation so that's protocols like Ethereum, the maximally decentralized protocols, layer ones and the infrastructure like layer two's built on top of that. And it's democratized because it's not constructed by a small group of entities and controlled top down by centralized institutions, it is open to technologists, entrepreneurs to build, to fork, to modify, to fix rapidly and to utilize. So that's the governance layer for the planet essentially. This new trust foundation is enabling the decentralized financial player for the planet to be constructed and that's also being done not by centralized institutions but by entrepreneurs and technologists. It's open and accessible and usable to hopefully everybody at some point soon. I lost my train of thought, can leave it there. Yeah. So I think you were talking about NFTs being the prime driver? So yeah, it is a prime driver in opening up our ecosystem and the technology to just many more millions of people and NFTs will be... it is a profound invention. I think it's going to change the nature of software going forward. I think it's you know, software's composed of software objects and now we have software objects that can have unique identity and can pay and be paid, and can vote or decide and be voted on, and these software objects are going to enable creators or content owners to directly interact with the consumers or their fans without the intermediaries capturing a huge proportion of the value in those relationships. The ability to wrap content and programmatically unbundle or bundle different kinds of rights around that content so that you could identify far more rights to certain content than what was previously recognized - so streaming into certain kinds of formats or public performance and that will just make it so much easier for so many more content creators to make a living. For the first time really we're noticing huge blockchain based meetups and events, clubhouse etc. that the crypto savvy people are not organizing. So, artists are organizing them because it's just technology that enables something that they really care about. Yeah, so the NFTs are kind of pulling people in because on the surface they can relate to it but then they start scratching beneath the surface quite quickly and they start to realize how it can be tied with all these other great things. Yeah. So continuing just discussing on the NFT side because there's the Palm Network that's spun out of ConsenSys or certainly it's a ConsenSys venture. You've certainly had very significant success with the first project that was put on that with Damien Hirst's pieces. ConsenSys is obviously very excited about the possibilities with NFTs, where do you see Palm going in terms of this first stage? Is it just doing these drops and giving people the opportunity to get involved with the collectibles? But, there's got to be some bigger picture things about how it can start to tie into some other parts of the ecosystem potentially. Is there a road map or ideas floating around your head about that side at this point in time? Sure, yeah. So ConsenSys and other companies and people in our ecosystem have been doing NFTs for a pretty long time. They weren't always called NFTs, our Ujo project issued (that's a music platform project), issued NFTs a long time ago. Treum was tracking fish and consumer products with NFTs. Treum has also launched EulerBeats, a really successful generative art NFT set of projects. Palm is indeed a network that the ConsenSys stood up, there's a company called Palm NFT Studios, which is related and it's essentially a digital design interactive studio that helps companies build platforms or do launches. ConsenSys stood up this network because there was a need to create a low cost, extremely low carbon footprint or energy footprint side chain using exactly the same Ethereum technologies - MetaMask and Infura - that had a bridge. So it was intimately connected to Ethereum mainnet and you can move different kinds of tokens across the bridge and was also very interested in enabling the creator so a creator DAO is in formation and it will be funded by a large number of Palm tokens. I shouldn't perhaps use the term funded because these Palm tokens have no value, as we all know, they're just nice tokens that we're putting into the DAO. People can petition the DAO for some of those tokens in exchange for getting some work done. Perhaps most importantly, there hasn't been a really great platform on which DeFi could be built specifically for NFTs. So in the traditional economy, we have these fungible tokens like money and shares and companies, and a lot of financial infrastructure built up around that. But there's an enormous amount of value in non-fungible assets - title, mortgages, invoices etc. and a lot of infrastructure around that in the traditional world. We're going to see a lot of DeFi infrastructure - automated market makers, lending borrowing systems, insurance etc. - all build up that is very similar to the fungible token infrastructure but a little bit different in some cases. So the AMMs will have to be a bit different and I anticipate that NFTs will play a huge role in providing collateral to different situations. So Palm is indeed an exciting project and the Damien Hirst launch was spectacular. There's more experimentation, I think, going to be built on that project and there's a huge backlog or pipeline of different launches that are lined up that are extremely exciting. There's another one. Yeah, it's going to be awesome to see these drops happening. Then, to your point there about the DeFi type support of NFTs, so the recent news for instance was the marketplace OpenSea actually launching their own tokens so that they can start to move toward DAO type governance and it got me thinking, is that almost like there's the first step towards that world which is a bit more analogous to what's happening within the DeFi space with AMMs and so on. That you start to have that DAO based structure behind the scenes and then you have a token there that can reward the people selling on top of the platforms. Yeah, so I do think we're in the early days of DAOs but they're getting very significant. It's going to become absolutely necessary, in my opinion, to have decentralized governance for many projects if you want to be successful. The approach to regulatory issues, structures, complications is a really interesting one. The SEC, a while ago, came out with the doctrine of sufficient decentralization and so if you can demonstrate that your project is really genuinely decentralized then I think that's going to go a long way to defining a new kind of structure, a new kind of collective structure, that needs to be seen differently and treated differently by regulators. And there are some incredibly cool, innovative things happening. There's a lot of tooling sprouting up around DAOs. We have a project called Sobol that essentially enables you to view your organization, your flat organization or your organization that might be composed of circles, overlapping circles, circles within circles, each representing initiatives, projects, teams etc. That tool, which is a really remarkable tool, we've used it for quite a while at ConsenSys, is starting to get really intimate with different DAO projects and providing some of that infrastructure and other voting systems, treasury management systems, have been sprouting up that are really exciting. Our friends Hypnosis have built some important pieces to that and people are building on top of those specifically for DAOs. The LAO infrastructure is really exciting, Flamingo, Neptune, Bitcoin DAO is exciting. Party DAO is incredibly exciting. So it basically enabled a group of people to, kind of in real time, organize themselves and establish ownership, purchase collectively and fractionalize an NFT that they can then legitimately use on their profile. Fun stuff in the DAO space and so much work to do as it becomes probably the main way that we organize ourselves in this coming age of community. Yeah, absolutely. This is such an exciting area that some seems, you're right, that's really going to be the next big thing that comes to the forefront within blockchain after NFTs and DeFi. So, just touching a bit more on DeFi, how are you seeing established institutions trying to get exposure to it? Because MetaMask has got an institutional offer I believe and also of course, given who ConsenSys' backers were as well with the big names in finance behind you, there's obviously a lot of interest there too so it'd be great to get your perspective on what, in your view, what it looks like the institutionalization of DeFi. So with respect to regulatory issues, we first expect that people will continue to be able to publish software and that when there are custody issues involved, securities issues involved and maybe some interfaces for consumers to this published software there may be some regulatory implications. We've been paying attention to regulatory implications in what is a fork of our MetaMask client. So MetaMask is really designed for consumers and we're adding more financial primitives into it, the financial primitives that we operate are essentially interfaces to underlying financial primitives that other projects publish and we're able to to aggregate some of those things and provide a really great experience to them. So swaps is out there, fiat onboarding is out there in MetaMask already and more to come. With respect to MetaMask Institutional, it adds different kinds of risk management, KYC, KYT which is 'know your transaction' part of AML capabilities, reporting, tax reporting at some point. And within an institution, whether it's a trading institution or just one of the increasingly large number of companies that are taking crypto in their business as payment, they are all gonna need to understand their workflow, understand the security around who's able to do what sorts of transactions and so we're paying a lot of attention to building workflow and making different roles, different permissions explicit and enabling organizations to be internally secure and implement their processes institutions themselves. You know, Michael Saylor has done a great job of activating corporations to think about what's going on with issued money, that it's depreciating and not yielding very much and Justin Drake has done a really great job of alerting lots of people about what's going on with ultra sound money. So bitcoin is digitally sound money, gold is sound money and Ethereum is fast becoming ultra sound money - a deflationary asset. We're going to see a lot of organizations move, people in organizations move from that sort of weaker monetary system into this growing monetary system where the assets are growing in value and yielding significantly. Hedge funds, the smaller financial institutions have been aware of this for quite a while. Major multi-billion dollar funds are now deploying money in the space and even the more conservative financial institutions are tooling up, if not active already, but they have to be slow movers because they're regulated and it's gonna take a little more time to get permission from their internal and external legal counsel. And so expanding on that, is it something that you feel that there's limits there in terms of how far we can go? You reference the nation of ultra sound money and this idea that with the fractional reserve banking system, the monetary system that kind of underpins our nations you've kind of got that narrative but then on the other side you've got these central banks looking at central bank digital currency approaches. With that sort of approach it doesn't change the ... it still states 'managed' a lot of these are centrally managed these different currency systems and cdbc's with blockchain, can make it more efficient but it doesn't change the narrative and move it towards this idea of ultra sound money. So do you envisage that at one level you've got the kind of more maximalist view which is like everyone's going to go to the ultra sound money, decentralized, code defined digital assets but then on the other side you've got regulators who no doubt that there's going to come a point where they're not happy with everyone just jumping to these other monetary systems. So where do you feel that the right balance is and do you have any insights into where the regulators feel it needs to be? Because, they're not going to want everyone to be as radical say as Michael Saylor with adopting bitcoin as their primary reserves. So nation states should have their own token and they should be using the best technology to implement their own money system. It should be aligned with their own philosophical political principles. We will see. So ConsenSys is doing a bunch of work on central bank digital currency projects with different central banks around the world. There's significant interest. It's hard to say adoption at this point because it's still early for central banks. Some are further along than others but the Ethereum technology is in the lead, in my opinion, in terms of interest from central banks partly because it's just a rock-solid technology compared to many other technologies, even if it's only used for cryptocurrency. I think there's an understanding that if you're a central bank you don't just want to stand up a monetary system, you might want to think about the future and realize that your monetary system should probably support smart contracts because monetary system is going to be a foundational layer for the whole economy. Central banks increasingly, they certainly have dominance, if not monopoly, on being the money system in the nation state. They're increasingly competitive with one another because some of them influence or have regional influence in regional usage for their money, some of them have global usage for their money, EU and primarily the US and this competition is really interesting. They're gonna have to make technological decisions that enable them to continue to do business and do business well because it is after all, a nation-state level of business. But they're also facing challenges from open systems from ether and Ethereum and Bitcoin and others and that's going to cause them to make design decisions that will enable them to keep up with the capabilities offered by these other systems and also make decisions about how they want to interoperate with other networks. So the BIS is doing some work to link up different CBDC projects, or at least facilitate the linking at some point in the future, and it'll be really interesting if and when these nation state money systems connect up to permissionless smart contract platforms potentially. It may be the case that let's say, the Federal Reserve token could be permissionlessly mirrored and wrapped on Ethereum for instance so if you for instance, freeze it on the Fed network or whatever that ends up being, you could issue a sort of wrapped version on the other network. So, fascinating times coming in the future with respect to how nation-state currencies and other digital assets inter-operate. Most important to me, I think, is choice. There should be lots of optionality so that we can build different kinds of monetary systems and choose the right ones for the use case. Yeah, you can almost see it playing out where like these nation states start to launch their own projects, all these different decentralized projects doing 'if you subscribe our token then you get health care/ you get education/ you get all these perks', that come I guess with tax revenue, so yes, it's really cool to hear your perspective on that. Yeah, the country of Facebook tried to do that! Yeah, yeah, true! So let's just move to some of the bigger industry trends. What do you think of Elon Musk's impact on crypto and blockchain more generally? Well, first his impact on the planet is just amazing. He's an awesomely talented human being doing great things in interesting ways for all of us. The first thing to notice is that the memes signaling is incredibly powerful especially as the world is configured right now with social networking making it a very small world for many people. That's great when he embraced Bitcoin, he sort of made positive noises about Ethereum early on and made a lot of barking, positive barking sounds, around Doge. So he embraced Bitcoin then he had to pull back basically because of the perceived energy issues, carbon issues. That was not because he just did an analysis and and suddenly realized 'hey Bitcoin uses a lot of electricity', it was basically because he has grants and other sorts of things that he needed to not endanger. So I think he's navigated that situation pretty well, Doge is the same technology so roughly, Litecoin based technologies, a little bit different would be subject to the same sorts of problems if it got really big. So it's great that he's paying attention and validating our ecosystem from his perch. He certainly likes attention, he likes running little mini social experiments by putting out a word or a phrase and seeing how all the humans scurry and try to interpret it. I feel like it'd be nice if he understood how impactful his utterances are because an utterance can be taken very seriously and impact lots of people both positively and perhaps negatively if they're financially exposed. Most importantly no doubt, he and his companies have deep strategies that they'll weave into their products and services so I'm looking forward to seeing Tesla, SpaceX, power electricity infrastructure, robots etc all be natively adopting the cryptocurrency and decentralized protocol infrastructure in interesting ways. Especially the flamethrowers, really interesting to see how he will reach cryptocurrencies into his flamethrower product. Yeah as part of the product he put out there. So one of the things that comes up, I mean personally, I've always thought of Ethereum a bit like Linux in that it's more than a technology, it's a movement because it's art, it's got some solid technology there but the bigger thing is you've got all these passionate people around the world who form this community who really believe in what they're building. So that to me, when I first looked at blockchain, was really what pulled me towards Ethereum. However, there's a couple of other views that some people have, some people talk in terms of Ethereum might be hot right now but it's the Myspace of the web3. It's like there's lots of people using it but it's not going to be the thing. Or there's other projects who are thinking 'oh well let's make Bitcoin more like Ethereum and add DeFi to it', 'let's create a new layer one technology to displace Ethereum'. What's your view on that and why people feel compelled there? I mean, if someone came to you with any of those narratives how would you respond? So first, I and ConsenSys believe in a world of many kinds of decentralized protocols, many doing different things, many doing very similar things and all linked up in useful ways and interoperating with one another. So basically, we're seeing the formation of the increasingly decentralized web and it feels a little bit silly to equate Ethereum to an application. The MySpace application used a bunch of technologies, http, html, tcp etc and the Ethereum is much closer to that layer so it's closer to the enabling foundational infrastructure of the web than it is to just an application that ran on the web. But your point is will it go, be replaced by Ethereum killers? First I think it's really great and necessary for our ecosystem to broadly explore the solution space and Ethereum has certainly established itself as the leading candidate to be a major component in the foundational layer of the trust layer of the digital future and the digital assets element layer. Maybe the decentralized finance hub of the digital future. There will be many other projects and many layer twos that are going on Ethereum as the layer one, or other layer ones, many layer ones that will connect laterally to Ethereum so, I don't know. It's still early in the development of our ecosystem but Ethereum has established itself as the hub that everything is connecting to and the reference that nearly everything is comparing itself against or riffing off of and so no concerns about Ethereum going away. I think it will remain foundational and a major component of the infrastructure going forward and there's some great projects out there, but Ethereum is so far ahead in terms of size of ecosystem, number of transactions per day, amount of value flowing and amount of value being created and amount of a number of new projects and new technologists entering the ecosystem. The Ethereum 2 project is about to merge with the Ethereum 1 execution network and enable Ethereum to catch up and leapfrog significantly with respect to scalability. Layer twos are already doing that so it's really exciting to see significant scalability and cost reductions but hopefully lots of those great projects will via different architectures or different tunings of different architectures develop to subserve different kinds of use cases very similar to how different database technologies - Graph, SQL etc. do subserve different kinds of use cases on our current compute infrastructure. Yeah and you mentioned the upcoming merge with Ethereum and that's something that ConsenSys has invested very heavily in their R+D and Ben Edgington was here last month talking about the cutting edge there so it must be great to see it finally getting close because it's something that no doubt, a lot of time has been invested into to get to this point. Shout out to Ben Edgington, he's up there and he's doing a spectacular job in steering ConsenSys in the Ethereum 2 direction and helping steer the whole ecosystem, the whole Ethereum 2 ecosystem. It's good, this is gonna be awesome when they cut over happens. Right, so we're gonna just turn it over to the audience, we've got a couple of questions in the chat. If people have any other questions they'd like to ask please put them in. I can't guarantee we'll get through them all but it's going to be good if there's some burning questions people have. This is one from Frances, between adopting an existing public blockchain such as Ethereum versus building their own, where do you see the central banks leaning towards and why? So the quick answer is they have a lot of responsibility. They need to be extremely prudent. They need to move slowly and not break entire economies and so they will stand up their own solutions on their own networks. They will likely build bridges in time or other people will build bridges to public permissionless systems. My view is that the public permissionless infrastructure should be at the foundation of everything going forward and that we'll see private permissioned networks in the form of just software-defined network, applications being built on top of permissionless infrastructure in just the same way the internet is. At its foundations, the internet technology is permissionless it's grown up in layers and the higher level layers are regulated but you can stand up to your own internet if you want to and if you figure out how to connect into the main internet then you have permissionlessly become part of the internet. And, what's your view on the US governments and Fed's attitude towards cryptocurrencies? Do you expect more hostile regulations or warm embraces from this point on? Both! Absolutely, so we expect some people to attempt to shut things down or really slow things down so that they can position themselves for this paradigm shift. We don't expect... first of all, many things that have been discussed are impossible to implement and regulators will realize that. Rule makers like people in Treasury and the IRS, will make sensible rules once given mandates from the politicians. Bottom line, the Curve cafuffle that we listened to a couple weeks ago around the infrastructure bill, it was really great for our ecosystem it put cryptocurrency explicitly on the tax radar - a healthy thing. It awakened 100 senators to the fact, in the United States, to the fact that there's this massive thing going on worth trillions of dollars and they're trying to backdoor regulate it. I think it's Ted Cruz, I think he was speaking to that body and he basically said something like 95% of you have no clue about what this technology is and how it works and we all need to get some education before we attempt to make laws that will sort of implicitly regulate it. So I think it's all going to go very well. We at ConsenSys are really comfortable that things that we care about won't be improperly or poorly regulated. And if there's some light regulation around the edges, especially the gateways between the financial, the traditional financial ecosystem and the decentralized ecosystem and it's already significantly regulated, but even a little bit is probably not going to be... they won't turn every individual and smart contract into a virtual asset service provider that needs to spy on and report on all of its peers. Okay, so another one from Timothy Coleman as a follow-up, as ConsenSys has been moving from a spokes model to separating the tech and investment arms, do you believe in the blockchains for hashes, databases for data view of some players in the space and if so how could this lead to a change in the tech side at ConsenSys five years down the line? So there's certainly lots of use cases with respect to blockchains for hashes, validation of what went on. There are technologies like Baseline that enable organizations to sync up their internal systems of record processes and data and agreements with those of counterparties and use Ethereum mainnet to basically serve as a global again system of record to log zero knowledge proofs that keep those disparate systems in sync. Most of the enterprise, the really successful enterprise projects, are around provenance or digital assets and so we do a bunch of work on that front, we have products on that front. We are in the middle of launching something called Quorum Blockchain Service, which is a managed service on Azure and essentially working intimately with Microsoft to migrate many hundreds of projects potentially from Azure blockchain service to foreign blockchain service and so we will see a bunch of those traditional use cases and there's some good ones out there. There are a lot of companies using blockchain in a private permission context including Microsoft itself, so we'll see those persist. We're focusing on enabling enterprise to access mainnet to access DeFi, to access especially NFTs increasingly and we see a convergence coming and or building up the tools for that. And my final question, this is from Jack, do you see low code or even maybe even no code playing a significant role in getting more people building on top of Ethereum? Of course, there's challenges with things like for new people working with a wallet and so on and what's your view? Absolutely, we have a no code, low code specialist who's been thinking about and building some of that stuff for a long time in a more traditional context. He's about to be unleashed in that direction. Cool, look forward and announcing it soon! Joe, it's been fantastic to host you here today and thanks again. It's been really, really great to hear your views on where we are, it's just wonderful to see where we are now in 2021 with respect to blockchain and where ConsenSys has got to in the overall ecosystem. I'm sure 12 months from now, well it'll be less than that, six months or less, we'll be celebrating being off of proof of stake as well, sorry proof of work and transitioned onto proof of stake so plenty still to happen but really excited to just hear everything that yourself and ConsenSys have been doing. Thanks Conor, thanks everyone.